tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1148797755731444630.post1451627498421720928..comments2024-03-26T04:38:44.333-03:00Comments on Ecological Sociology: Integrating Economic Gain in Biosocial SystemsGaryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01594415948430315779noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1148797755731444630.post-23242397333765477602011-01-16T13:26:08.097-04:002011-01-16T13:26:08.097-04:00I also think its interesting that Tainter's mo...I also think its interesting that Tainter's model defines information as 'codes', similar to Luhmann's codes. My goal, since studying Luhmann, has been to understand the link between social systems, i.e. information or coding, and thermodynamics, i.e. energy. Tainter's model seems to put these together. But I would also have to reconcile West's scaling theory. Seth Lloyd's point about the conservation of energy and information in complex systems seems to mirror West's theory: that material systems become more efficient as they scale up in size and complexity, i.e. urban infrastructure. However, social systems are super-exponential: they grow to an enormous size to the point of collapse, unless redirected by a new system of organization. The Internet is an example of introducing many more layers of hierarchy, integration and complex organization into the social system in order to avoid collapse and facilitate a new growth trajectory. This also follows Lloyds theory that systems tend toward more complexity and tighter integration.Shaun Bartonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1148797755731444630.post-37579211028704921522011-01-16T12:59:17.232-04:002011-01-16T12:59:17.232-04:00What I like about this model is the link between e...What I like about this model is the link between energy and information. I have been learning more about this from a book by MIT physicist, Seth Lloyd, called "Programming the Universe." Energy and information are not the exactly same thing, but they are inseparable and mutually constituting. Energy takes different forms, and the particular form that energy takes is information about that energy. Energy is conserved in more tightly organized, complex systems (1st law thermodynamics). Information is also conserved in tightly organized systems (1st law). That's why evolution tends tends towards more complex and integrated systems.<br /><br />Information is the amount of data needed to describe (or differentiate) the exact position and velocity of a particle of energy. Highly disorganized systems, like helium atoms in a balloon, require more information to describe the exact position and velocity of each helium atom in the balloon. Highly organized systems, like one brick stacked squarely on top of another, require less information to describe the exactly position and location of the bricks. Higher levels of organization conserve information (brick level) more efficiently, than lower levels of organization (atoms in the bricks). That's why systems tend toward more tightly integrated forms of organization and more layers of organization. They conserve both energy and information.Shaun Bartonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1148797755731444630.post-42886998203316110132011-01-16T12:24:21.944-04:002011-01-16T12:24:21.944-04:001. Just one question for clarification: is there a...1. Just one question for clarification: is there a missing descriptor in this sentence:<br />"High gain systems can be predicted by flux as they take in 'xxx' fuel at a rate." <br /><br />Would that be a 'high' rate or 'fluctuating' rate?<br /><br />2. I had learned the general rule of thumb in systems theory that the degree of complexity in a system is directly related to the amount of energy in a system. High energy input increases organizational complexity.<br /><br />This model seems to be saying that there are differences in the quality and spread of energy in a system, and those differences shape the operation of the system. A high-gain system finds scarce, high-quality energy that produces a localized, or specialized, operating system that serves a smaller population, e.g. the wealthy few. <br /><br />A low gain system finds lower-grade energy sources that are more abundant but require more processing (labour) and that support a larger population, e.g. the poor majority. The low-gain system compensates for the low-grade of energy by being more efficient. Too much demand or too much infrastructure can cause systemic breakdown in a low-gain system. <br /><br />A society level example might be this: the wealthy have more money—a high-gain system which buys energy to do work—to buy all their food from whatever world market they choose. The poor grow community gardens and small farms to grow their own food—a low-gain but energy efficient system—but its limits are the amount of food that can be produced. Too much demand causes the failure of the local food system.Shaun Bartonenoreply@blogger.com